Key highlights

• Don't wait for the final evaluation. Formative feedback gives educators an opportunity to address problems while there's still time to make changes.
• Not all feedback is constructive. Helpful feedback identifies a specific problem that can actually be addressed; personal criticism isn't necessarily something an educator needs to carry.
• Explain the why. Feedback is easier to understand and act on when students know how a behavior connects to patient safety, trust, or another desired outcome.
• Boundaries aren't selfish. Knowing when you're unavailable—and creating systems that protect that time—can help educators manage the emotional demands of the job.
• Burnout isn't only an individual problem. Program culture, staffing, workload, leadership, communication, and psychological safety all play a role.

Episode description

Burnout in dental hygiene education isn't just about an educator's ability to be resilient. In this episode of A Tale of Two Hygienists, Jessica Atkinson and Dave Torres talk with dental hygiene educator and program director Jasmine Haley about the emotional labor of teaching, difficult student evaluations, faculty development, and what happens when the academic culture itself is contributing to burnout.

Haley shares practical strategies for creating a more supportive environment, including using formative feedback instead of waiting for end-of-term evaluations, giving feedback with dignity and a clear "why," setting boundaries around work, and creating psychological safety so faculty can ask questions and seek help. The conversation also explores why burnout can be a systems problem—not simply a personal one—and why clear expectations and trust matter for both faculty and students.

A Tale of Two Hygienists Podcast – Episode 552

Why burnout in dental hygiene education needs a culture change [00:34]

Jasmine Haley: I believe in extreme ownership. There's this book titled Extreme Ownership where everyone should take accountability: faculty, the staff, and the students. And so often I encourage them. I tell my students we're all on this path to being elite dental professionals. I let them know that they're already elite dental professionals.

And so when the students have approached me about some of their concerns, it's with accountability, but also understanding the big picture of what the outcome is that we want to achieve as a program.

I think the biggest thing, though, is that for us to solve the national crisis of burnout, the academic cultures have to change. We need to create environments of psychological safety. So can your faculty ask questions? Can they admit mistakes? Are they seeking help?

A bad student evaluation can really sting [01:38]

Dave Torres: Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of A Tale of Two Hygienists podcast. I am your co-host, Dave Torres, and I'm here with my amazing co-star, Miss Jessica Atkinson.

Just this morning, I got a text message. Have you ever gotten those text messages that, out of nowhere, you're like, "I haven't spoken to this person in a while," but I'm so happy they reached out to me because they were on my mind? And that text message was one of my instructors from hygiene school.

Naturally, she was like, "How's Desi doing?" Which is my wife. So I got a little offended by the fact that she wasn't asking really about me, but mostly my wife. But then I remember that was her fun way of teasing me because, as you know, me and my wife met from school.

But I am so happy and so excited to be able to talk to today's guest because we do focus a lot on educators and all that fun stuff. So just tell us and the listeners about who we're going to be talking to today.

Jessica Atkinson: Well, we decided that we were going to gear up, ramp up in August for the beginning of a new school year for the up-and-coming brand-new members of our profession. And I was like, "Who do we have come? Who do we have come?" I'm like, "I know exactly who we have come."

And we have with us today Jasmine Haley. And I am so excited to have a really great conversation with her about how we prevent burnout in dental hygiene educators.

Jasmine has a master's degree, and she is an RDH. She is a certified dental assistant. In my state, womp, womp, we don't have any certification for assistants. We could talk about that in another episode. Anyway, she is an educator, program director, consultant, and leadership development professional with more than 24 years of experience in dentistry, health care, and higher education.

As the founder of Legacy Scaler and the National Academy of Dental Educators, she specializes in leadership development, communication, curriculum design, and workforce development. Jasmine is passionate about helping professionals and organizations strengthen leadership capacity, improve workforce performance, and create meaningful learning experiences that drive lasting impact.

And I'm so excited to have a meaningful conversation today. And I know it's going to have a lasting impact. As a fellow educator, I mean, just this last semester, I got a review that honestly surprised me. I don't know if anyone else, when they get their end-of-term reviews, kind of start sweating and wonder what's going to happen.

I just had a really great experience with this class. I felt like things were just going really well. And then I got a review that singed me, singed me big time. And we're talking about preventing burnout in dental hygiene educators. And Jasmine, tell me how you manage these situations.

Give me some background here. Have you always been impervious to this?

Jasmine Haley: Well, no. So I actually don't really worry so much about my surveys anymore from students.

Jessica Atkinson: Oh, tell me. Teach me, teach me.

Jasmine Haley: I mean, honestly, it comes from me having to grow some thicker skin by being out on the speaking circuit.

And also I really tap into a little bit of education and methodology. So for those of us who are educators who are listening and those who are clinicians, when we're creating programs, we should do assessments. And assessments can be done either at the—well, you do assessments at the beginning, but then you do evaluations, right?

So the evaluation can take place at the end of a program or during. And so now, as a faculty, I'm actually doing a lot more formative evaluations so that I'm actually getting feedback from the students as the course is progressing.

And I also jokingly let them know, "Please don't write this on my summative evaluation because I already know this needs to be fixed. But tell me if there's other things that I'm not able to really see."

I don't take it personal anymore. I literally am able to read the comments from a survey and know who's reflecting their personal issues that they have to work on and who's actually providing constructive feedback.

When I know I may be in a vulnerable state, I won't look at the surveys. I will actually wait until I'm emotionally ready to handle them. So that's been kind of what I've done.

Give students a voice before the final evaluation [06:29]

Jessica Atkinson: Good takeaways. Be in an emotional state that you can hear it with a good lens and also reflect on the formative evaluations as a guide.

Because I would think that formative evaluations sometimes feel less heavy, or they feel like, "We're working on this, we're changing this," and less personal. Sometimes students feel like they need to unload, and I wish they didn't, but here we are.

Jasmine Haley: Yeah. And sometimes they unload the worst part of it at the conclusion because they haven't had a voice during the rest of the class.

So I think that when I approach my education in a collaborative way with them—and let me just say this, because some of them are like, "The students are nitpicking." All right, I get it. I understand. I have survived some of those difficult environments as well. And it all is based on the culture that's being created, which we can talk about a little bit later within the system.

But my students—we have an open-door policy. And so whatever it is, they are able to share that. But there's also an agreement that I believe in extreme ownership. There's this book titled Extreme Ownership where everyone should take accountability: faculty, the staff, and the students.

And so often I encourage them. I tell my students we're all on this path to being elite dental professionals. I let them know that they're already elite dental professionals. And so when the students have approached me about some of their concerns, it's with accountability, but also understanding the big picture of what the outcome is that we want to achieve as a program.

Not all feedback is actually useful feedback [08:26]

Dave Torres: So, like, Jasmine, I'm just so curious, and I'm sure the hygienists listening to this, whether they're student and instructor or everything in between, what's—I mean, honestly, what's the difference between criticism and feedback?

Because even at a dental appointment, right? Like, I'm a hygienist and I've considered teaching.

Jessica Atkinson: I'm making a mental note.

Dave Torres: Considered, considered teaching. But, you know, one of the things that I resonate with you a lot is, you know, is this something that you kind of develop very quickly?

Because the more I practice, the more I'm asking for that feedback or that transparency during the appointment, not necessarily towards the end, not necessarily in a review once the patient has already left and they're just trolling you on social media or whatever, right?

But is this something that, "Hey, you know what? Like, before, during and after, I want to kind of do like a check, an emotional pulse and see how we're doing." Because at the end of the day, you do believe in that accountability from them and you, right?

Jasmine Haley: 100%. And a lot of times it's like people don't understand that.

A lot of the lessons that I've learned in education, I've had to apply in my personal life. I had to apply in my community where I worship. I mean, it is applicable. It is life lessons, right? It's just that sometimes when we are overloaded with a million and one tasks, we're not as intentional with the way that we're going about.

But I, just like you said with our patient, we're checking that pulse. I am doing the same.

It encourages the students. You're always going to have the outliers. You're always going to have the students that just—they're not going to ever want to join within where you're taking them, right? And they may decide that this may not be the right route for them.

But when you lead in the way in which you want your students to show up, they will follow. They will follow. And that's what I humbly believe. Now, somebody is going to fight me on that.

Jasmine Haley: Because I literally just had—and that's okay, you can catch me outside.

Jessica Atkinson: But I'm more interested in an example, Jasmine, because I would like to hear about how you have modeled this supportive academic culture and how that's come back to you.

Like, what kinds of things are you implementing within your program that is engendering these experiences where the student feels like they do have a voice and they feel that they are being supported and maybe mitigating some of those singe moments or burnout moments because you're catching them earlier?

Feedback should be specific, private, and tied to the why [11:18]

Jasmine Haley: Okay, so I do want to go back for one second and answer a question that Dave was asking about feedback.

So constructive feedback would look like, "I had a very difficult time navigating the Canvas site, and I could not find what I need, and it made it hard for me to be able to do my work." That's constructive feedback. I know exactly how to fix that structure of my course.

Personal would be, "I didn't really like her voice. Her voice was blah, blah, blah." Like, I can't change that. Like, you don't have to take that up in prayer, okay? I don't know what to do.

Jessica Atkinson: "I don't like your tone." Like, okay, I don't know.

Jasmine Haley: Well, the tone could be something that you could work on because it could be your delivery. But my voice, I can't change that.

Jessica Atkinson: Tell me more about delivery because I've had the tone and I'm like, I don't know if I'm speaking the same to—

I feel like I'm speaking the same to everybody, but you're hearing it differently. So what are some words that you use that soften your voice or soften whatever's coming out of your mouth? How are you mitigating your tone?

Jasmine Haley: Sometimes you have to take a step back and not address it at that moment.

So if any of you are feeling spicy on the inside, you have to have enough self-awareness to take a break right from that moment. So I would say that is a huge factor of how the tone may be.

But a lot of times I'm approaching any sort of feedback to the student in a collaborative way. And I'm also making sure that when I'm doing it, I'm doing it in a way that provides them dignity.

A lot of times some people come from the old-school part of education where you do what I say and that's it. But we're dealing with adults here.

And so when you maintain their dignity, it softens the blow with the accountability. So, for instance, if I had a student that had an issue, obviously if they're working with a patient and we're concerned about the patient's safety, I would have to stop them right then and there.

But other times I would have to pull them out from their operatory, pull them into a place where they may have some privacy and give them that feedback. I think that's the biggest part: I'm looking at, "Am I embarrassing them? Am I providing it in a way where they understand?"

So I start with commendation first, and then I highlight what the outcome is. So if the outcome is patient safety, if the outcome is building patient trust, and then I share with them next what the actual alternative way in which they can approach whatever it is that I'm trying to correct.

Jasmine Haley: I love them.

Jessica Atkinson: Yeah. So what I'm hearing is what you're modeling is some constructive feedback. You're giving students constructive feedback.

You're not giving them feedback on, "I don't like the way your voice sounds when you're talking to your patient." I don't like, you know—and say, "Hey, when you have a conversation about fill in the blank with your patient, here are some tips on how to come across as a motivational interviewer," instead of coming at you and saying, "I don't floss," or that—some things that might be influencing your tone that you're not recognizing because you're not using the right vocabulary or you're not having that conversation at the right time or space.

Jasmine Haley: And you have to share the why. So you have to add in, like, not only, yes, we do have—we have to do motivational interviewing, right? But what's the reason? We want to build trust.

So in order to build trust, we have to do X, Y, and Z. So I think when we look at our communication, our feedback to our peers, our feedback to our students, it's giving that why.

And I know a lot of people don't want to communicate that way, but I'm always thinking about, how can I work more efficiently so that I can lessen and lighten my load and not be overly stressed out?

What if faculty need development, too? [15:22]

Jasmine Haley: So there was a question you had asked me before where you were asking, like, what have I done differently?

Now I serve as a program director. And I was actually having another conversation with another colleague about the approach that I've taken. So, you know, as an educator, Jess, that we have to do a million and one things, but one of the things that often isn't included is personal development.

So I include personal development in the way we approach our goals for the academic year. I include it in our meetings, and I look at ways in which to help with filling the cup of the faculty.

Because a lot of times we're asking questions like, "How do we make our faculty more resilient?" rather than, "How do we create an environment for them to thrive?"

So in the cases that I've dealt with, and especially where I am currently, that was a huge part for me: having a listening ear, hearing what the challenges were, making sure that the faculty felt heard, and then working on the personal development pieces that we needed in order to start building a more collaborative work environment.

Jessica Atkinson: I love that.

Dave Torres: So I want to dig deeper a little bit about this whole burning out as a faculty program director, right?

I mean, I remember what it was like being a student, right? And I was a little arrogant, right? Because I was younger back then. And it was a combination—you add a little bit of stress, a little bit of student loans, a little bit of not being able to work and studying all the time, and then just naturally questioning why are we studying the things that we're—you know, we're not gonna see again, like embryology. I'm just gonna say it, embryology. Why are we—

Jessica Atkinson: Hey, you see embryology every day, Dave. Those people didn't grow out of nowhere.

Dave Torres: Yes, but maybe not as much.

But here's the thing. Going back to what I was asking you, what is the other ingredients to your recipe about not burning up? Because you mentioned a little bit of resilience, right?

Resilience to me is something where you're able to go in day in and day out. But I can see being an educator and saying, "What, this cohort is just—it's like a kidney stone." You know what I mean? They will eventually pass, but it's just—this cohort is just that. It's painful.

And, you know, we're trying our hardest. And, like I said, putting myself in the shoes of a student, not that we have a lot of autonomy, because there's times where my mindset took me as in, like, "I'm never gonna make it to—you know, I just gotta roll with the punches. Two years after this, it's gonna be okay," right?

But, you know, I had difficult instructors. I now look back and realize that those instructors made my life a little bit more difficult because they cared, because they care about the career, they care about the patient, the health of what you were just alluding to, right?

We're students with sharp instruments and we're just a bit intimidated by everything. We don't want to hurt anybody. But being able to kind of like understand a little bit more of that resilience, what other recipes do you have in your secret recipe that you think would be impactful? Because I do resonate a little bit with that resilient mindset.

The emotional labor of teaching is easy to underestimate [18:46]

Jasmine Haley: Well, we have to understand that there's an emotional labor piece and a very complex system in academia.

So, we talk a lot about in clinical practice, compassion fatigue. Well, it's times 100 when you are in education because I'm not minimizing the clinical piece, but there are other bodies that we have to answer to in addition to serving the students who come to us with very complex backgrounds, difficulties that I didn't even see when I was in school.

And I came from a single-parent household. I was working while I was in school. I didn't have as much support that I would have liked to have had, right?

But when we think about it, it makes me think about public health. We talk about Maslow hierarchy of needs. To get to that point of self-actualization, you have to have these critical parts where they are covered sufficiently for you to get to a place of self-actualization.

Well, the very bottom of that is the physical needs. And many of our students are dealing with lack of housing, not having enough money, not having enough money to pay for food to eat.

I mean, there's a huge load on them.

So I think what faculty need to understand, those who are coming in and those who are in it, the reason why you feel so tired is because there's an emotional labor piece that nobody prepares you for.

Sometimes you have to give difficult feedback to students. Sometimes students are struggling. Sometimes you're the educator, the mentor, the coach.

Then you have these external accrediting bodies that you have to answer to, which is CODA. Then you have the institutional accreditation body to answer to.

So there's a lot of things that show up.

Boundaries are part of staying in education [20:42]

Jasmine Haley: So the biggest part that I want educators to understand is that the ability to self-lead, or some speakers call it self-governance, that internal work has to happen because a huge part of building the capacity to continue in education, whatever you decide to go, wherever step you want to go, is boundaries.

You have to understand that not every problem belongs to you.

Not every student crisis can be solved by you, right? Sometimes saying yes to everything is not the answer.

And so my boundaries, when I first dealt with burnout, when I first started Beyond the Prophy, and I was out there speaking, I was talking about burnout.

Well, that was from education.

And that was because I simply didn't have personal boundaries in my own personal life.

I didn't have personal boundaries with my husband. I didn't have personal boundaries with my kids.

So, of course, it's going to translate in an environment that may not have been the most healthy environment for me to be in as an educator.

So when we think about burnout, we have to first consider what are the boundaries, what are the places that I need to work on internally?

For me, it was therapy. It was doing things that provide me some joy.

Right now, as a program director, I have a separate cell phone. My team, who I love dearly, does not have my personal cell phone number, not one of them.

They have my work cell that, when I am home at night, it's in my work bag. It is off on the weekends. I am not available. It is off.

And so that has provided some sort of boundary for me because I deal with compassion fatigue. And if I hear a bang, I'm gonna wanna respond to it.

And so I know myself, and I've learned what I specifically need.

So those are some of the things that I would say would be the first step.

Burnout can show up outside the workplace [22:48]

Jasmine Haley: I started reading books. There's a book called Boundaries, literally Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud, and it is phenomenal.

I do want to just give a disclaimer that it does list out some biblical scriptures. So if anyone is offended by that, then don't read that book. But it's phenomenal. You don't have to be a Christian to be able to learn from that book. It's not heavily religious at all, but I will say that it was one that helped me to see where it was leading.

Another one that I have found to be very good is When the Body Says No. That is a phenomenal book because sometimes people think of burnout as emotional exhaustion, being irritable.

My burnout presented as pain in joints. I had gastrointestinal pain I couldn't explain. It was week after week I was going to the hospital or urgent care to figure out what was going on.

You may be detached from work, looking for jobs on Indeed, constantly thinking about leaving, but there are sometimes physical signs that show up, unexplained medical conditions that can't get diagnosed.

And that's where I was at because I was in a constant state of chronic stress, which then increases the inflammation within the body. And then, of course, you know, the result of that is some systemic conditions.

Personal development is part of professional development [24:22]

Jessica Atkinson: I'm hearing you say loud and clear that often we lump professional development in, like our personal development, into professional development.

Like, "Oh, you're doing personal development, you're taking some CEs," but that's not what it is.

It's your secret sauce, is what I'm hearing, Jasmine. Your secret sauce is some personal development.

And I wrote down extreme ownership. I wrote down When the Body Says No.

And actually, when you said that, I remember an experience I had within the last month when somebody said, "Want to do this."

And I was like, "My body said no, but I was like, that's a year away. Let's just say yes."

And I'm thinking about it and I'm like, oh, am I needing to be a little bit more attentive or intentional to my personal development?

Jessica Atkinson: 100%. I'm hearing you. I'm hearing you, Jasmine. I'm hearing you.

Jasmine Haley: If you talk to more of those faculty that are burned out, you will notice that a lot of them are not doing anything fun outside of work.

A lot of them may be struggling on a personal level with their family relationships.

They aren't happy.

And then you have to take someone who isn't happy and then have them teach students, where you have to have a tremendous amount of patience, the patience of Job, to be able to share.

Jessica Atkinson: So education is fun.

If you're listening to this and you're like, hey, like, honestly, I think back and I like education is just—

So watching students flourish and being in a healthy department, like I'm in a—I am so grateful every day because dental hygiene education is hard.

I can't imagine how difficult it would be if, in addition to some personal growth I'm going to be doing, there were also professional pressures that I currently am grateful that I'm not being pounded with.

So this has been really helpful for me, Jasmine.

For those who maybe feel like they're in a pressure cooker, what are some early warning signs or something that you're like, "Hey, get on this now," you would recommend?

Don't wait until burnout reaches a breaking point [26:42]

Jasmine Haley: I would say that if you are experiencing any of the symptoms that I just mentioned, if you're feeling like you're backed in the corner, you're so overwhelmed, where you feel like you want to scream in a corner, you don't really know what else there is to do, the time is now.

I would really, really, really encourage anyone that are feeling some of those feelings and you're not at that place of desperation to start seeking some help now.

I think the biggest thing, though, is that for us to solve the national crisis of burnout, the academic cultures have to change.

We need to create environments of psychological safety.

So can your faculty ask questions? Can they admit mistakes? Are they seeking help? Is there distrust?

One of the things that we worked on when I first came on the team was how can we build trust in our team?

How can they seek help? How can they raise concerns? How can people offer different perspectives?

If there's constant bickering and fighting, it's going to translate into issues with the students.

You will not see the academic curriculum data that you want to see improve if the team culture is off.

It's just not going to happen.

So when we're thinking about what you need, sometimes it could be mentorship, sometimes it could be therapy, but seek that help, whatever that help feels like for you.

This is just the start.

And for me, it was starting to read books. I started reading books, started learning more, that built up the courage to seek therapy.

And then that gave me enough courage to start branching out into different forms of education.

Clear expectations can build trust on a team [28:27]

Dave Torres: So, Jasmine, I learned very early in my career that when you say yes to something, you automatically are saying no to something else, right?

Like when you're trying to help that friend or you're trying to pivot a little bit more and do more things for others, you automatically are potentially saying no to yourself.

And I've learned that kind of builds that burning-now sensation, that anxiety where you give, give, give, but you're not receiving. Your cup is just emptying a little bit.

Tell me a little bit more how we can kind of support each other, help each other, perhaps going into work or going back to school after the summer with a new mindset of being able to work on that resilience and relationship.

What are some of the key components?

Because you mentioned trust before, right? And trust is something that it's earned.

How do you work on that? How do you build that?

Jasmine Haley: I think the biggest thing is making sure that the team understands what the main objective or outcome is for the department, and it needs to be discussed.

So I start off each academic year with a theme, just like I have a word of the year for my personal.

I do a theme for our faculty.

Our theme was a boat.

And if you are rowing on that boat, if one person goes in an opposite direction, what happens?

It can cause the boat to capsize.

So when the faculty understand the direction in which they're going as a team, and we collectively are reminding of that every time we meet, whether you're part-time or full-time, then they will all understand the direction in which they're rowing.

And as a leader of a program, building that trust is also exhibiting what you want that to look like.

So I have to be willing to accept feedback for the other faculty to be willing to accept that feedback.

I think that is a huge missing piece.

Now what we have to also be mindful of is that faculty are dealing with not adequate staffing. I have two faculty positions that are open right now.

We have large workloads. Sometimes our administrative support isn't all the way there.

And the biggest part was having that clarity and clear expectations and just giving them information.

People will come on board with you if they understand the why, if they understand where they're going.

And sometimes that information is key.

So when I looked at my business, when I left dentistry for about six years, I grew a consulting firm and I looked at when I would hire people from the outside.

And in order for me to be able to get to the goals that I wanted in my consulting firm, I had to explain where I was going.

Otherwise, the team didn't understand their role and how to support that.

And so if you see the challenge in academia happening, it's because there's no clarity.

There's no clarity.

And I heard once a dentist say, "Clarity equals kindness."

So I'm always thinking about where, in the way I communicate as a leader, how can I be more clear?

If I see a faculty rowing in the opposite direction, I wasn't clear.

That's extreme ownership.

I wasn't clear.

Once I know I'm clear and they're still rowing off in another direction, now we got a problem.

Jessica Atkinson: Now then we got to go to accountability.

Jasmine Haley: Right, now we got a problem.

Burnout isn't just personal; it's also a systems problem [32:04]

Jasmine Haley: So I think that's the biggest part.

And so I wanted to just also bring out too about burnout, because a lot of times people feel like it's just a personal thing.

It's not just a personal thing.

It's a systems problem.

So that system can be in your personal life system. Like I told you, I didn't have no boundaries with my husband and my kids. So I was saying yes to too many things.

And I had to realize, why am I saying yes to too many things?

Is it because I just—am I seeking approval? Is it because I don't feel worthy or deserving enough and I just want validation from people externally?

Sometimes we're doing that.

And then that trickles down into our professional life.

So if there aren't systems in academia, which it can happen, I've lived through that, can also add to your burnout.

So we have to start thinking about what systems do I want to start off with?

And if you have your personal boundaries on lock, then you can start working on the professional.

But I feel like the foundation for everyone is to tap into the inner work first.

And when you do that, you have a sense of freedom that can never be taken from you, regardless of the work environment that you are in.

Jessica Atkinson: Thank you, Jasmine.

It's reminded me of one of my favorite fruits, the pear.

And the pear is like the only fruit that ripens from the inside out, and you need to focus on the inside.

And I think that's a great place to wrap up today.

And I've got a bazillion things to think about, and I'm excited to do some more ripening from the inside out.

Thank you, Jasmine.

Dave Torres: Thank you, Jasmine.

Me too.

I'm excited to obviously work on myself and work with my team and be tighter than the lingual frenulum and ankyloglossia, right?

We gotta be able to support each other because we are on the same team.

I appreciate you so much, Jasmine.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Jasmine Haley: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm very grateful.

Keep learning, keep laughing, and keep showing up [34:11]

Jessica Atkinson: That's a wrap on today's episode of A Tale of Two Hygienists podcast.

If this conversation made you feel seen, inspired, or even just a little fired up, share it with a fellow hygienist or fellow dental professional.

Share it with your neighbors, your friends. Share it with everyone.

That is how this community grows.

Dave Torres: Make sure you subscribe, leave us a review, and connect with us on social media so that we can keep on going with this conversation.

Remember, your career, your voice, and your story matter here.

We're Dave and Jessica, and until next time.

Jessica Atkinson: Keep learning, keep laughing, and keep showing up for yourself and for each other.